JRE 1588 · June 27, 2024

Lawrence Wright

historyconspiracysciencepsychologypolitics

Who is Lawrence Wright?

Lawrence Wright is the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of multiple books including "Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood & the Prison of Belief", and "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11". His newest title is "The End of October", a medical thriller about a doctor's race to stop a global pandemic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Topics and Timestamps

01Lawrence Wright discusses his new medical thriller 'The End of October' and how writing it during the pandemic became eerily prescient
02Deep dive into Wright's investigative work on Scientology for 'Going Clear' and the organization's tactics against critics
03Wright explains his research process for 'The Looming Tower' and how the CIA missed warning signs before 9/11
04Conversation about the intersection of ideology, belief systems, and how people get pulled into extreme organizations
05Wright shares insights on interviewing hundreds of sources and the challenges of writing narrative nonfiction
06Discussion of pandemic preparedness, bioweapons concerns, and how governments failed to anticipate COVID-19
▶Lawrence Wright introduces 'The End of October' and the eerie timing of writing a pandemic novel before COVID-190:00:00
▶Discussion of Going Clear and the intensive investigation process into Scientology's operations0:15:00
▶Wright explains intelligence failures and CIA-FBI communication breakdowns leading up to 9/110:35:00
▶Conversation about pandemic preparedness failures and ignored expert warnings before COVID-190:55:00
▶Wright discusses his interviewing process and building trust with sources in sensitive investigations1:20:00

The Show

JRE 1588 brings Pulitzer Prize-winning author Lawrence Wright into the studio to talk about his latest medical thriller 'The End of October' and his decades of investigative journalism. The timing of this conversation is wild because Wright wrote this pandemic thriller before COVID-19 hit, making the book feel uncomfortably prophetic. Joe and Wright dig into how the book came together, what inspired the narrative, and how Wright's background researching real-world threats informed the fictional pandemic storyline.

The conversation shifts to Wright's most famous work, 'Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief'. Wright explains the massive undertaking of investigating Scientology, interviewing defectors, and dealing with the organization's aggressive responses to his reporting. He talks about how Scientology operates as a belief system that keeps people locked in through layers of commitment and indoctrination. The book exposed the inner workings of the organization and its treatment of members who try to leave.

Wright also reflects on 'The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11', his deep dive into how American intelligence agencies missed the signals leading up to 9/11. He discusses interviewing CIA and FBI officials, accessing classified information, and piecing together the intelligence failures that allowed the attacks to happen. The book shows how bureaucratic dysfunction and lack of communication between agencies created dangerous gaps in national security.

Throughout the episode, Wright emphasizes the importance of understanding belief systems and ideology. Whether discussing Scientology, radical Islam, or pandemic preparedness, he explores how people adopt worldviews and how those worldviews shape behavior and decision-making. He talks about the human susceptibility to charismatic leaders and compelling narratives, even when those narratives conflict with reality.

Joe and Wright discuss how governments globally fumbled the pandemic response despite decades of warnings from epidemiologists and public health experts. Wright explains the hubris of assuming 'it won't happen to us' and how political considerations often override scientific recommendations. The conversation touches on bioweapons concerns, gain-of-function research, and whether COVID-19 had natural origins or escaped from a lab. Wright discusses the difficulty of investigating these questions and how China's lack of transparency complicated early pandemic response.

The episode explores Wright's methodology as an investigative journalist and author. He talks about spending years on research, conducting hundreds of interviews, and verifying information across multiple sources. Wright emphasizes the importance of primary sources and direct interviews rather than relying on secondary accounts. He shares stories about gaining people's trust, asking difficult questions, and pursuing stories despite pushback from powerful organizations.

Best Quotes

“I wrote this book before the pandemic, and it became a way to process what was actually happening in real time”

— Lawrence Wright