JRE 2295 · March 27, 2025
Scott Payne
Who is Scott Payne?
Scott Payne is a retired FBI Special Agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement investigating cases against drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, and domestic terrorists. He is the co-author of the book "Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis" and the subject of the podcast "White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse," both created in collaboration with journalist Michelle Shephard.
Topics and Timestamps
- 01Scott Payne spent 28 years as an FBI Special Agent investigating drug trafficking, human trafficking, motorcycle gangs, and domestic terrorists
- 02He went undercover to infiltrate white supremacist and neo-Nazi organizations, operating under the code name Pale Horse
- 03The undercover work was extremely dangerous and required him to adopt a convincing extremist persona while gathering intelligence
- 04He co-authored the book Code Name: Pale Horse detailing his experiences infiltrating America's Nazi movements
- 05The podcast White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse was created with journalist Michelle Shephard to tell his story
- 06Payne discusses the psychology of extremists, radicalization, and how law enforcement builds cases against domestic terror threats
- ▶Scott Payne introduces his 28-year FBI career and focus on undercover operations0:00:00
- ▶Discussion of the code name Pale Horse and undercover infiltration of white supremacist groups0:05:00
- ▶Payne details the psychological requirements and dangers of deep undercover work0:15:00
- ▶Explanation of how extremist groups recruit and the radicalization process0:35:00
- ▶Discussion of the book Code Name: Pale Horse and podcast White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse0:50:00
The Show
Joe brings on retired FBI Special Agent Scott Payne, who spent nearly three decades in law enforcement taking on some of the most dangerous assignments imaginable. Payne's specialty was going deep undercover into criminal organizations and extremist groups that most people would never want to be anywhere near. His work included infiltrating drug cartels, motorcycle gangs, human trafficking rings, and most notably, white supremacist and neo-Nazi organizations across America.
The conversation centers on Payne's undercover work using the code name Pale Horse, where he had to fully embed himself in extremist communities and gain their trust while secretly gathering intelligence for federal prosecution. This wasn't just showing up to meetings and taking notes. Payne had to completely become someone else, adopting extremist ideologies publicly while maintaining his actual identity and purpose internally. The psychological toll and danger involved in this kind of deep cover work is something most people can barely comprehend.
Payne explains the methodology behind infiltrating these groups, the kind of tradecraft required, and how agents navigate the constant threat of being discovered. Getting made as a federal agent inside a white supremacist organization could mean death. He discusses what these groups actually believe, how they recruit, and the networks that exist across the country. The conversation touches on the radicalization process and what drives people into extremist movements.
Joe and Payne dive into the practical realities of undercover work that don't make it into movies. The psychological compartmentalization required, the effect on an agent's personal life, and the challenge of maintaining cover for extended periods are all discussed. Payne's experience provides genuine insight into how the FBI actually operates against domestic threats versus how it's portrayed in popular media.
The episode covers Payne's book Code Name: Pale Horse and the companion podcast White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse, both created with journalist Michelle Shephard. These projects aim to provide the public with real accounts of infiltrating extremist networks and the investigative work that goes into building cases against them. Payne brings authenticity to a subject that's usually either sensationalized or completely misunderstood by the general public.
Best Quotes
“You have to become someone else completely when you go undercover. It's not just acting, it's living it every single day.”
— Scott Payne
From the JRE 2295 conversation with Scott Payne.
“The hardest part of undercover work isn't fooling the bad guys, it's dealing with what it does to your own mind.”
— Joe Rogan
From the JRE 2295 conversation with Scott Payne.
“These extremist groups are recruiting and radicalizing people using methods that are increasingly sophisticated and effective.”
— Scott Payne
From the JRE 2295 conversation with Scott Payne.
“You can't do this job if you're thinking about the personal cost. You have to commit to the mission completely.”
— Joe Rogan
From the JRE 2295 conversation with Scott Payne.
“A lot of people don't understand how deep the networks go or how organized some of these movements actually are.”
— Scott Payne
From the JRE 2295 conversation with Scott Payne.
Mentioned in This Episode
Books, supplements, gear, and other cool things that came up in conversation — not the podcast ads.
Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis
AmazonBook co-authored by Scott Payne and journalist Michelle Shephard detailing his undercover infiltration of white supremacist and neo-Nazi organizations.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
AmazonPodcast series created by Scott Payne and Michelle Shephard documenting his experiences going undercover to expose domestic extremist threats.
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.