JRE 1798 · June 27, 2024
Michael Shellenberger
Who is Michael Shellenberger?
Michael Shellenberger is an author, president of the non-profit research group Environmental Progress, and a candidate for the governorship of California. His most recent book, "San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities," is available now.
Topics and Timestamps
- 01Michael Shellenberger discusses his book 'San Fransicko' and the progressive policies that have degraded major California cities
- 02Environmental Progress focuses on nuclear energy as a solution to climate change rather than intermittent renewables
- 03Shellenberger ran for California governor in 2022 with a platform addressing homelessness, crime, and urban decay
- 04The conversation covers how well-intentioned progressive policies have created unintended consequences in housing and drug policy
- 05Discussion of the mental health and addiction crisis in San Francisco and how it relates to policy decisions
- 06Shellenberger explains why he believes nuclear power is essential for meeting energy demands while reducing emissions
- ▶Shellenberger explains the thesis of 'San Fransicko' and how progressive policies backfired0:05:00
- ▶Discussion of drug decriminalization and open-air drug markets in San Francisco0:18:30
- ▶Shellenberger makes the case for nuclear power as the solution to climate change0:35:00
- ▶Conversation about his 2022 California gubernatorial campaign platform0:52:15
- ▶Discussion of how tax base erosion created a death spiral for San Francisco's government services1:15:00
The Show
Joe brings on Michael Shellenberger, author, environmental researcher, and former California gubernatorial candidate, to discuss his controversial book 'San Fransicko' and the progressive policies he argues have damaged major American cities. Shellenberger has been a vocal critic of how left-leaning governance in places like San Francisco and Los Angeles has led to increases in homelessness, drug use, crime, and urban decay despite massive government spending.
The core of the conversation centers on how well-intentioned progressive policies often backfire. Shellenberger points to drug decriminalization, reduced enforcement of quality-of-life crimes, and restrictive zoning laws as major contributors to San Francisco's visible problems. He argues that when cities stopped enforcing laws against public drug use and camping, it didn't help vulnerable people get treatment but instead created open-air drug markets and made streets less safe for everyone.
A significant portion of the discussion focuses on nuclear energy and Shellenberger's work with Environmental Progress. He makes the case that nuclear power is being wrongly demonized and is actually the most reliable, safe, and clean energy source available. He's critical of the push for intermittent renewables like solar and wind, arguing they cannot reliably power modern cities without massive battery storage that doesn't yet exist at scale. Shellenberger contends that environmentalists should be embracing nuclear as the primary tool for decarbonization.
Shellenberger explains his 2022 California governor campaign and the policies he proposed to address homelessness and crime through treatment enforcement rather than just harm reduction. He discusses the difference between compassion through accountability versus enabling drug addiction by allowing it to continue without intervention.
The conversation touches on how San Francisco's tax base eroded as wealthy residents and businesses left the city, creating a vicious cycle where declining tax revenue meant fewer services and more problems, further accelerating departures. Shellenberger frames this not as a failure of progressive values but as a failure of progressive governance and implementation.
Throughout the episode, Joe and Shellenberger discuss the disconnect between what progressives claim to want for vulnerable populations and what actually happens when policies designed to help them are poorly executed or fail to account for human behavior and incentives.
Best Quotes
“The problem is not that we're too compassionate, the problem is that we're not actually helping people”
— Michael Shellenberger
From the JRE 1798 conversation with Michael Shellenberger.
“Nuclear power is the safest form of energy we have, and it should be the centerpiece of decarbonization”
— Joe Rogan
From the JRE 1798 conversation with Michael Shellenberger.
“When you decriminalize everything, you don't actually help vulnerable people, you create an open-air drug market”
— Michael Shellenberger
From the JRE 1798 conversation with Michael Shellenberger.
“Progressive cities have become less safe and less pleasant for poor people, not more”
— Joe Rogan
From the JRE 1798 conversation with Michael Shellenberger.
“We need enforcement with compassion, not just harm reduction that enables addiction”
— Michael Shellenberger
From the JRE 1798 conversation with Michael Shellenberger.
Mentioned in This Episode
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